Tuesday, December 27, 2005

Ashtakavarga Graha Dasa (C.S.Patel & Raman Suprarajama)

From: Sunil John <suniljohn_2002@yahoo.com>
Date: Dec 27, 2005 12:35 PM
Subject: [vedic-astrology] Ashtakavarga Graha Dasa ( C.S.Patel & Raman Suprarajama)
To: SJC-Africa@yahoogroups.com, vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com

Dear Chandrashekharji & Other members,
Pls find below Mr. Ramans response mail which was not forwarded to other groups who were a part of the earlier series of mails.
Swee has been kind to forward Mr.Ramans reply with examples, though his mail didnt respond to my queries appropriately at all as to why the technique of bhuktis from his article is not at all working in the examples given by him. Further interesting points i will point out in his mail below. Before that I would narrate Shri C.S.Patels views, which upon the reminder of Respected Chandrashekharji I asked Chandubhai today (C.S.Patel)
I was scared to ask Chandubhai about Ashtakvarga Dasas since i had not read his Classic on the Ashtakvarga (1957), he instantly pointed out that he and Iyer didnt divulge this Dasa in their book. I asked him whats the classical reference behind it and he said Parasara. I replied that its not possible since all our list members have read Parasara's work and no one seemed to knew about it. He raised his voice saying that Arudhas are mentioned in Parasaras work but until he came out with his book on Arudhas no one seemed to talk about Arudhas,  and how to use it. Only few people who can be counted on fingertips could know how to use it. I waited patiently for 15 mins quietly and finallys he said i should not concentrate on Ashtakvarga Dasas. He was also upset that i had not read his book (written in 1957) since the dasa had been mentioned in it.
Brief Mention on the Ashtakvarga Dasas in his book
Mention 1
The Ashtakvarga Sstem of Dasas: In this method the Shodhapindas of the planets are multiplied by 7 and the product is divided by 27. The quotient is Nakshatra yrs. These are subject to Mandala corrrections and reduction to a) planetary conjunctions and b) due to positions in the visible half of the birthchart. This has been fully worked out. In this system the periods contributed by the planets are variable according to the Shodhyapinda. The Antaras, their order and their periods also diifer in every horoscope
SJ Remarks: I think this grossly differs to the calculation pointed out by Mr. Raman unless what Patel in the above paragraph is talking about is Ayurdasas
Mention 2 in this book
Introduction Pg XXiii
The Ashtakvarga Dasa, though highly spoken of by ancient teachers of astrology is not availed of in practice now-a-days
Mention 3
I cant find it right now, though i read it in the afternoon.
In my conversation repeatedly i asked him if it is not AyurDasas that i am talking about and he said yes it is different and all matters can be seen but he wasnt impressed by this topic of discussion at all. He pulled me back to work on this new book for which Chandrashekarji i am going to take ur and others help from this group.
Now, below we find Mr. Ramans response to my queries, my comments on that
a) Although he says that he has used jhora but in the recent first 2 examples which i checked, the Sodya Pindas of Ven used by him is different to what Jhora gives, same issue in my 1st earlier mail i had pointed out in his published article. He didnt even address that
b) He hasnt replie to give explanation as to why Bhukti determinationa technique in his published article doesnt work.
c) He doesnt give classical reference or from where he learnt this technique.
d) He additionally gives some definition of Vivaha as just mere sex also that this dasa points out, now this was not published in the article in the magazine, which as the case maybe then my interest in this dasa after so much of pomp pomp on it has dwindled completely.
e) I shall try and maybe correspond with him now, though i have lost his email id, might ask Sushmita our old member since she had corresponded with him couple of times. In the mail forwarded by Swee his mail id was deleted, maybe i shall ask Swee about it.
Pls find below Mr.Ramans mail
Sunil John
P.S: somehow after the first mail from PVR, there has been no response from him, maybe he has gotten busy with the Pooja

Warm regards,
Raman Suprajarama
Dear Friends,
I am glad that the article has aroused interest among the astrological family. It was father�s desire and advice that the article be written.
A few important points have to be noted. The articles have been wrongly titled. The article appearing in our September 2005 issue is on Graha Dasa and that in our December 2005 issue is on Rasi Dasa.
We can classify the Dasa systems broadly into two categories. They are Rasi Dasa and Graha Dasa. Vimshottari, Ashottari etc fall under Graha (Planets) Dasa and Chara, Sthira, Trikona etc fall under Rasi (Signs) Dasa.
Ashtakavarga Dasa, either Rasi based or Graha based, further falls under Gochara section. There is a difference between a natal fixed horoscope analysis and a gochara analysis. I will not be going in detail about the differences in this mail, but will definitely be speaking about them in the upcoming SJC Conference 2006.
Coming back to Ashtakavarga Rasi Dasa with respect the marriage, we need to first understand what �Vivaha� is. Vivaha simply put means marriage. But in actual terms, it is much more that mere exchange of garlands, rings or tying the knot. Vivaha can be understood as a complete acceptance and respect of a male and female in terms of mind, body, soul etc. Gochara section helps us to identify such scenarios which are reality in the illusory world.
In the amarakosha, Vivaha comes under the Brahma Varga and not under Kshatriya or other Vargas. If it had come under Kshatriya Varga, the term Vivaha can be understood as a physical union for gratification of senses or for mutual benefit. In current times, Living Together relationships and the like fall under this category.
Vivaha, falling under Brahma Varga, means more than this. A couple might have exchanged garlands and signed the marriage register, but this does not amount to Vivaha. For Vivaha to take place, a mutual acceptance of Brahmic attributes is essential.
The following three examples might help in understanding the beauty of Ashtakavarga Rasi Dasa. Some have asked as to which Software I use for calculations. We use our own software. However, for the benefit of members, in the current email, I am using the values calculated using Jagannatha Hora of Narasimha Rao. The values are quite accurate and reliable.
Example 1: Bill Gates, October 28, 1955 at 9:15:00 pm, Seattle
The Mahadasa periods are as follows (Chara Dasa):
Ge:      10/28/1955      -           10/28/1959
Ta:       10/28/1959      -           10/28/1964
Ar:       10/28/1964      -           10/28/1969
Pi:        10/28/1969      -           10/27/1976
Aq:       10/27/1976      -           10/28/1981
Cp:       10/28/1981      -           10/28/1985
Sg:       10/28/1985      -           10/28/1993
Sc:       10/28/1993      -           10/28/2003
Li:        10/28/2003      -           10/28/2015
Vi:       10/28/2015      -           10/28/2027
Le:       10/28/2027      -           10/27/2036
Cn:       10/27/2036      -           10/27/2040
In the Navamsa, UL falls in Leo. The 2 nd house is Virgo and has the influence of Rahu and Ketu. The 7th house, Aquarius, is free of influences. Virgo becomes stronger. Sagittarius, Pisces and Gemini aspect Virgo and become eligible to facilitate marriage.
Let us consider Sagittarius Dasa. The bhuktis are as follows:
Li:        28-Oct-85       -           28-Jun-86
Sc:       28-Jun-86        -           27-Feb-87
Sg:       27-Feb-87       -           28-Oct-87
Cp:       28-Oct-87       -           28-Jun-88
Aq:       28-Jun-88        -           26-Feb-89
Ps:        26-Feb-89       -           28-Oct-89
Ar:       28-Oct-89       -           28-Jun-90
Ta:       28-Jun-90        -           27-Feb-91
Gm:      27-Feb-91       -           28-Oct-91
Cn:       28-Oct-91       -           28-Jun-92
Le:       28-Jun-92        -           26-Feb-93
Vi:       26-Feb-93       -           28-Oct-93
Sodya Pinda of Venus is 186 and there 3 bindus in the 7th house from Venus in Binna Ashtakavarga.
186 * 3 = 558 mod 12 = 6 indicating Virgo. Virgo and its trines can give marriage. Vivaha is likely to have taken place in Pisces-Virgo ie between 26-Feb-93 and 28-Oct-93. The official marriage, however took place on January 1, 1994.
Example 2: George W Bush, July 6, 1946 7:26:00 am, USA
Cn:       6-Jul-46           -           5-Jul-56
Le:       5-Jul-56           -           6-Jul-58
Vi:       6-Jul-58           -           5-Jul-60
Li:        5-Jul-60           -           5-Jul-69
Sc:       5-Jul-69           -           6-Jul-78
Sg:       6-Jul-78           -           6-Jul-87
Cp:       6-Jul-87           -           5-Jul-93
Aq:       5-Jul-93           -           5-Jul-00
Pi:        5-Jul-00           -           5-Jul-06
Ar:       5-Jul-06           -           5-Jul-10
Ta:       5-Jul-10           -           5-Jul-12
Ge:      5-Jul-12           -           5-Jul-13
In Navamsa, UL falls in Scorpio. Sagittarius and Taurus become eligible. Sagittarius has Mercury and becomes more powerful. Pisces, Gemini and Virgo aspect Sagittarius and become eligible to facilitate Marriage.
The bhuktis in Sagittarius Dasa are:
Cn:      6-Jul-78           -           5-Apr-79
Le:       5-Apr-79         -           4-Jan-80
Vi:        4-Jan-80          -           4-Oct-80
Li:        4-Oct-80         -           5-Jul-81
Sc:       5-Jul-81           -           5-Apr-82
Sg:       5-Apr-82         -           4-Jan-83
Cp:       4-Jan-83          -           5-Oct-83
Aq:       5-Oct-83         -           5-Jul-84
Ps:        5-Jul-84           -           5-Apr-85
Ar:       5-Apr-85         -           4-Jan-86
Ta:       4-Jan-86          -           5-Oct-86
Gm:      5-Oct-86         -           6-Jul-87
Sodya Pinda of Venus I 73 and it has 4 bindus in the 7th from it.
73 * 4 = 292 MOD 12 = 4 indicates Cancer. Cancer and its trines can indicate marriage. Cancer Bhukti could have given Vivaha (6-Jul-78 to 5-Apr-79). The official exchange of rings took place on Nov 5, 1977 (perhaps Kshatriya type) and Vivaha took place much later.
Example 3: Male, December 4, 1978, 4.54 pm, Bangalore
The Mahadasas are as follows:
Ta:      4-Dec-78         -           4-Dec-83
Ar:       4-Dec-83         -           4-Dec-91
Pi:        4-Dec-91         -           4-Dec-00
Aq:      4-Dec-00         -           4-Dec-05
Cp:       4-Dec-05         -           4-Dec-10
Sg:       4-Dec-10         -           4-Dec-18
Sc:       4-Dec-18         -           4-Dec-22
Li:       4-Dec-22         -           4-Dec-34
Vi:        4-Dec-34         -           3-Dec-44
Le:      3-Dec-44         -           3-Dec-53
Cn:       3-Dec-53         -           4-Dec-59
Ge:       4-Dec-59         -           3-Dec-64
In Navamsa, Taurus is UL. The 2 nd and 7th signs are Taurus and Libra. Taurus is influenced by Moon, but Libra is influenced by 2 planets, viz., Saturn and Mars. Hence, Libra becomes powerful. Aquarius, Taurus and Leo aspect the sign and becomes eligible to facilitate Marriage.
Let us consider Aquarius Dasa. The Bhukti�s are as follows:
Li         4-Dec-00         -           5-May-01
Sc        5-May-01        -           4-Oct-01
Sg        4-Oct-01         -           5-Mar-02
Cp       5-Mar-02         -           4-Aug-02
Aq       4-Aug-02         -           3-Jan-03
Ps        3-Jan-03          -           5-Jun-03
Ar        5-Jun-03          -           4-Nov-03
Ta        4-Nov-03        -           4-Apr-04
Gm       4-Apr-04         -           3-Sep-04
Cn        3-Sep-04         -           2-Feb-05
Le        2-Feb-05         -           4-Jul-05
Vi         4-Jul-05           -           4-Dec-05
SP of Venus is 87 and it has 5 bindus in the 7 th from it.
87 * 5 = 435 MOD 12 = 3 indicates Gemini. Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces aspect Gemini and can facilitate marriage.
Vivaha took place in the month of August 2002 and the marriage took place in September 2002.
In above example, the three charts give three different scenarios. Ashtakavarga Dasa beautifully identifies the Vivaha time in this illusory world. Please note that the Dasa system helps us identify the Brahmic marriage. In current times, marriage has no meaning and the system fails in identifying such marriages.
Om Tat Sat,
Raman Suprajarama
Jaya Jagannatha
Dear Raman,
This might have missed your attention.
Dear  Chandukaka,
As per what has been told to me, it is applicable in similar fashion.
In his article on this, Mr.Raman didn�t indicate the reason why it is called Ashtakavarga Graha Dasha nor the source, infact since it is a Rasi Dasa, accordingly it should be called Ashtakavarga Rasi Dasha.
In previous mail of 2 days back wherein I had sent 3 charts as examples, I had stated there that the bhukti technique is not working only Main Period technique is working.
Speaking on marriage timing, since 1.5 yrs I am trying to get hold of a work which gives through mathematical model as to how to arrive at the marriage year, 100% success rate. It is reputed to be a very famous technique from a senior astrologer in Delhi. Unfotunately I have not been successful so far
Best wishes
Chandrashekhar <sharma.chandrashekhar@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sunil,
Is this applicable to all Karakas in similar fashion? Did Raman Suprajarama indicate why it is called Ashtaka varga Graha dasha and the source? Appears to be more like Karaka dasha to me. Of course I! could be wrong. Did you see whether the Bhukti fits in with the method given for the first chart?
Sunil John wrote:
Dear PVR,
Sashtanga Pranam
My Jhora is suddenly not working today giving MCS or MCF application error otherwise i would have attached charts & done more search on other charts. Pls ! find below rough notes that i prepared few days back with 2 chart examples. this dasa appeared in an article in Astrological Magazine and was written by Raman Suprajarama.
Although here he has used it only to time Marriage, from what I remember this dasa has multiple uses if Karaka is changed & Arudha is changed (from what given here in this article) - A10 for career in D10 chart, this is as per what i remember what my village astrologer told me. Then the antars would start in different order as karaka would change.
Also, I wonder if the dasa can be used! for general predictions along with SAV & PAV points to judge the result of dasa and antar in ones life.
If you or anyone can point out how to remove the MCS application error so that Jhora starts again in my PC i shall be indebted, without that software i have been frustrated from morning. tried reinstalling several times but not working.
best wishes
My notes
Astakvarga Graha Dasa
      The Dasa order in Ahstakavarga Graha Dasa scheme is similar to that of Chara Dasha �(SJ- in order to match with what Raman Suprajarama has given pls use Jhora and for Main Dasa order and duration just click to CHARA Dasa (Parasara Schem! e) � tested this on the 2 charts given by Raman in the Dec 05 AM mag & dasa order matches - KN Raos & Irangati's Chara dasa doesnt match with what Raman gave)
      Start dasa calculation from the day one was born e.g May 11th 1973
      Sign based dasa
      Some scholars of the opinion that Trikona based dasa can also be used as it denotes the four purposes of life (Dh! arma, ARtha, Kama and Moksha)
      The Bhuktis are calculated by considering the position of Venus in the RASI Chart
      Each Dasa period is Split into 12 equal parts, the 1st bhukti starts from the sign occupied by Ven and the remaining follow in the REGULAR order from that sign
Step 1:
1.                  Find out the UL Lagna in D9.
2.                  The 2nd house from UL indicates family here and 7th house indicates spouse. We need to consider the stronger of the two houses
     If more planets are present in either of the houses that becomes stronger.
      If both houses contain equal number of planets (or no planets) then the one with Mer or Jup or its LORD becomes the strongest.
      If this condition is also not satisfied, then the nature of the sign is studied, dual signs are MOST powerful, fixed signs come next and moveable signs are the least powerful.
Step 2
      The dasa of the sign arrived (Computed Sign) under STEP 1 indicates Marriage.
      It is also possible in the dasa of the signs aspecting the above Computed Sign
Step 3
      Such of those Rasis, arrived at in Step 2 (I think the ones aspecting the computed sign) which have more than 30 bindus in SAV can indicate marriage.
Step 4
      The Sodya Pinda of Venus and! the number of bindus in the 7th from Ven in Prastharashtakvarga (PAV) are multiplied and the product is divided by 12. The remainder represents the reference sign. Marriage can take place in the Bhukti of this sign or its Trines
Chart 1 From Dec 05 Astro Mag
Chart 1: 30th Aug, 1979 at 4.18 am at 12N59, 77E35, Can Asc, SC Nav
(Author Raman Suprajama proved thro this dasa that Marriage Happened in Feb 19, 2005 in Aq Dasa, he didn�t go into antars in this chart, he only went till Step 2 to show the dasa working, I think he uses Raman Ayanamsa which would be seen I think in Chart 2)
Personal notes on Chart 1
1) chart from Dec 05 A.M Ma! g. Pg 1022
2) Marriage - 19th Feb 05
3) Nav ASc seems correct to what was given in the mag
Ahstakvarga Graha Dasa
Step 1. In D9 Ul in Ge, 2nd from it is Cn and Sg is 7th, Cn has two plaents wehrea! s SG has none,
so Cn is stronger and capable of giving marriage
Step 2. Ta, Sc & Aq aspect this Computed sign which is Cancer, so all the 3 are capable of giving marriage
Step 3: Also, the 3 signs arrived at which have moer than 30 bindus can give marriage but here none have more than 25 bindus, infact Aq which gave marriage has only 21 bindus
Special  note SJ: Aq has Ketu in it, which according to Jaimini - Ketu is capable of giving marriage strongly
Step 4: Sodya Pinda of Ven = 147 & PAV of Ven is 3
both should be multiplied - 147*3=441 then divided by 12, remainder is 9 - So the remainder is 9
which becomes SAgitarrius as the reference Sign, the marriage can take place in the bhukti of this sign or its trines
Final note: Step 3 & 4 didnt work in actual practice
Chart No 2
1) Chart from Dec 05 AM mag, pg 1022
2) chart Details: 18th Jan, 1962, 21 hrs 23 mins at  26 N 27, 74 E 38
b) Nav Asc here is Virgo(thro jhora) but in mag it is Libra, I guess since the
article is from Raman Suprajamana, he must be using Raman Ayanamsa
3) Marriage in Jan 1999
SJ Notes: If on! e doesn�t take the right ayanamsa then UL changes which is the key to this dasa, so one way to testing this technique could be using it on known charts and using two different ayanamsas
a) Here take Raman Ayanamsa and then only Libra lagna in D9 is arrived to
match what is given in Dec 05 AM mag article by Raman Suprajama
b) Step1: UL comes in Cancer, 2nd from it is Le with mer and 7th from it is Moon in Cp, since both have equal number of planets, Le is taken since it has Mer (either Mer, Jup or its lord)
Step 2: Signs aspecting Leo is AR, Libra and Cp - all 3 capable of giving marriage
Step 3: SAV bindus - Ar is only 18, Li is 31 and Cp is 45, though Cp is more capable it didn�t give marriage whereas Aries/Aries gave marriage, maybe since Aries is 7th house of natal D9
Step 4: Sodya Pinda of Ven=199 (whereas in magazine it is given 202) & 7th from PAV of Ven =1 (in mag it is 7). Multiply both = 199 (mag gives 1414)
This 199 divide by 12, remainder is 7, so sign is Libra, so bhutki can be Libra and trines which is Ge or Aq, but infact bhukti was of Taurus - so technique doesn�t work
SJ Notes: what Jhora gives as Sodya Pinda and number of bindus in Ven PAV, is completely differe! nt from what Raman Suprajaramas software is using, don�t forget to write to Virendra who knows Raman so as to know which software he is using .
"Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" < pvr@charter.net> wrote:
Namaste Sunil,
I don't know of any software that gives it.
If you share the definition of this dasa or give a reference, I can try to add it in my software (Jagannatha Hora). Give a practi! cal example also, if you can.
Merry christmas and happy new year to you too!
May Jupiter's light shine on us,
Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net
Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org
Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org
----- Original Message -----
From: Sunil John
To: ashtakvarga@yahoogroups.com ; Jyotish Group ; parasari_jyotish@yahoogroups.com ; srijagannath ; Varahamihira Group ; valist@yahoogroups.com ; Vedic Astrology List
Cc: Narasimha Rao ; Narasimha Rao
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:40 PM
Subject: Ashtakavarga Graha Dasa - astro software
Dear Learned Members,
Can anyone point out which astro software calculates the �Ashtakavarga Graha Dasa�
Shall be most grateful.
Btw, Merry Christmas to everyone & may the coming year be full of wonderful productive experiences.
Sunil John

Wednesday, December 21, 2005

Seven Vs. Eight Chara Kaaraka

Namaste Sri Dakshinamoorthi,

> Even Rahu cannot become a karaka unless there is a tie
> up between two planets for a karakatwa thereby leaving
> some karakatwa vacant by Jaimini Muni Pramana.
> I will quote Adhyaya 1 Pada 1 Sutra 11 for your
> reference:

This is consistent with the way I understand Parasara's teachings in BPHS on chara karakas.

My guru Pt Sanjay Rath maintains that one should always take 8 chara karakas including Rahu in human charts and that 7 karakas are applicable in some non-human charts. While I have great respect for him, my reading of Parasara suggests to me that Sanjay ji is not correct. In fact, my sincere belief is that neither Pt Sanjay Rath nor Sri KN Rao got this one correctly.

Jaimini is cryptic and can be interpreted in multiple ways. Parasara is more verbose. If you carefully read Parasara's words on chara karakas, he talked about when to use 8 karakatwas vs 7 karakatwas and when to take Rahu and when not to. Have you studied Parasara's verses carefully? If you have, can you share your understanding with the list?

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Dear Shri. P.V.R.Narasimha Rao,
Shri.Mohan Ram - one of the members of this forum hasforwarded a mail that he seems to have written to youon your post to me. As this is consistent with myviews, I am posting it in the vedic-astrology groupsforum for the benefit of all members. One thing I wish to add is that, apart from Rahu,other natural sthira karakas will also attainkarakatwas if more than 2 planets share the samekarakatwa and there arises a deficiency of karakaplanets. May Divine Light show us the right way. Blessed be.
--- mohan ram <mohanraaam@yahoo.co.in wrote:

Respected Guruji,
I have answered Shri. P.V.R.Narasimha Rao's post based on my thoughts though he had addressed the post to you. I am sending the same message to you by pasting it because I forgot to CC to you when I posted it. Kindly go through the reply and correct me wherever I am wrong. Humble pranams. copy of the message text is as follows:

Dear Shri. Narasimha Rao,
When to take 7 karakatwas and when to 8 karakatwas are mentioned in the karakatwa adhyaya of BHPS Chapter 32. There is no ambiguity regarding what the Maha muni Parashara thinks about the matter. I will translate the opening verses of the chapter on karakatwas for the benefit of members of this list:

Verses 1 and 2: " I now detail below Atma Karak etc., obtainable from among the 7 Planets, viz. Sun to Saturn. Some say, that Rahu will become a Karak, when there is a state of similarity in terms of longitude between (two) Planets. Yet some say, that the 8 Planets, including Rahu, will have to be considered irrespective of such a state."

It is clear that the rishi is of the view that the 7 planets from Sun to Saturn are to be considered for assigning chara karakatwas. He also mentions about Rahu becoming a karaka based on two different views (which is hotly debated by learned astrologers of this day!) which seem to have existed even in his days!

Some verses later (17th verse in Chapter 32 to be precise).... he says " If two Planets have the same longitude, both become the same Karak, in which case there will be a deficit of one Karak. In that circumstance consider constant significator in the context of benefic/malefic influence for the concerned relative."

While assigning the karakas of 12 houses, Rishi Parashara has clearly left out Rahu and has distributed the karakatwas only among the 7 planets.

Muni Parashara's works are verbose as Shri.Narasimha Rao has said and need no complicated logic to work out. Jaimini Maharishi on the other hand, is very cryptic and his verses are open to different interpretations! As Jaimini Maharishi is the disciple of Sage Veda Vyasa who himself was a direct descendant of Sage Parasara, we can safely assume that when he has cryptically indicated something in his sutras, we may get benefitted by referring to sage Parashara's works for a better clarity.

By the way, with all respect to Pt. Sanjay Rath, I do not know, how he says that 7 karakas are to be taken for non-human (or does he mean superhuman souls and avatars?) horoscopes and 8 karakas for all other horoscopes!

To put it in a nutshell, my understanding is that the karakatwas are distributed ONLY among the seven planets from Sun to Saturn as per my reading of both classics viz. BHPS and Jaimini Sutras. Rahu comes in ONLY when two planets are in exactly the same degrees and hence acquiring the same karakatwa and then, Rahu fills up the deficient karakatwa."

Blessed be.

Monday, December 19, 2005

Kundalini Awakening

From: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@charter.net>
Date: Dec 16, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: [vedic-astrology] Re: Kundalini Awakening _Sre-eram_reply to Rivolena
To: vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com

Namaste friends,
I have been away from the lists for a few days because of a few different poojas and today had a little time to catch up.

> Can we consider ourselves us ENLIGHTENED SOULS who have attained the
> BUDHA state and who could authentically speak about the experience
> and sadhana system to be followed to attain the same, AT LEAST to our
> sishyas? NO, PROBABLY NOT.

Whenever the topic of Kundalino comes, some people start talking as if merely having a Kundalini awakening makes one an "enlightened soul" or a "Buddha". That is not true at all. Kundalini awakening is not a big deal and a very very small thing compared to enlightenment. Thousands of people experience Kundalini awakening and many may even succeed in having Kundalini rise. But they all do not become enlightened.

I know some people that I am convinced had a Kundalini awakening. They are all people whose self-consciousness is making progress in reaching higher planes of consciousness. But none of them, except one, is an "enlightened soul" who attained the "Buddha state".

The reason for this latest thread is some assertions by Prabodh that I thought were simply incorrect and needed to be corrected. I was not talking about the highest state of enlightenment, but talking about the Kundalini awakening which is more like the first step rather than the last step.

I can say confidently that (1) Kundalini can awaken in ladies also and (2) Kundalini awakening and rise can occur thru various means, including Bhakti yoga and Jnaana yoga and not just Raja yoga as Prabodh asserted.
Irrespective of my own spiritual stature or that of people I know, I am quite confident of the above two assertions and thought it appropriate to refute wrong assertions being made. Based on the books I read as well experiences of people I know, I know that Prabodh's assertions are incorrect.

> > Any person who has experienced kundalini will not normally share
> > that unique experience with anyone -

The point that people do not go around talking about their Kundalini experiences is correct. A spiritual person does not advertize his credentials.
Moreover, sharing some details relating to the manifestation of the experience does not amount to sharing the experience. Words cannot capture certain experiences. You can explain in many words how snow is to someone on the equator who has never seen snow in life, but he may not understand it or understand it incorrectly. Words cannot always capture to perfection the concepts/experiences/thoughts they try to express.

May Jupiter's light shine on us,
Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net
Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org
Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

Wednesday, December 14, 2005

Ayanamsha in Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

From: Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr@charter.net>
Date: Jun 8, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Jhora 7.02 vs Swiss Ephemeris

>>Dear Members,
>>I have some questions regarding Jhora 7.02 (full 57 mb version) :
>>Why is there a difference in arc seconds/minute between Jhora
>>7.02 and Swiss Ephemeris ?
>>Using planetary positions on 1st of Jan 2005, 00:00 hr, GMT
>>+00:00, Lahiri, as an example :
>>Jhora = Sun 16:44:50.83
>>Swiss = Sun 16:44:28.6793
>>Jhora = Moon 15:22:12.37
>>Swiss = Moon 15:22:09.7656
>>Jhora = Mars 10:26:02.53
>>Swiss = Mars 10:25:29.0106
>>Jhora = Mercury 24:29:01.41
>>Swiss = Mercury 24:28:35.4791
>>Jhora = Jupiter 23:21:58.32
>>Swiss = Jupiter 23:21:46.2340
>>Jhora = Venus 25:11:12.33
>>Swiss = Venus 25:10:30.8806
>>Jhora = Saturn 01:00:07.95
>>Swiss = Saturn 01:00:19.9033
>>Correct me if I am wrong, both software is using exactly the same
>>ephemeris file "sepl_18.se1" to generate these planetary positions.
>>If that is the case, shouldn't the figures be exactly the same or at
>>least the same after rounding off the arc second decimal places ?
>>This is not an attempt to put Jhora in bad light, but a serious
>>desire to find out why the difference in the figures.
>>I use Jhora frequently and I am very grateful to Narasimha for not
>>only releasing such a fine software free of charge but also uploading
>>the full 57 mb version for the public to download.
>>Thanks in advance to any reply to my above-mentioned queries.
>>Best Wishes,

Namaste Pushya, I am away from the lists. If anybody has something urgent that needs my attention, they should cc the mail to me. Sanjay, thank you for forwarding the mail to me! The Swiss Ephemeris positions you gave must have been computed using "apparent" positions instead of "true" positions. In JHora, select "Preferences", then "Related to calculations" and then "Planet Calculation Options". In JHora, default is "true" positions. So you are comparing apples to oranges. If you want to compare apples to apples, please change the JHora option to use apparent positions (though I recommend true positions). If you change the option and do a comparison, you will no longer have upto 30 arc-sec differences that you showed below. The differences will be more or less uniform and will be slightly less than 2 arc-sec. Apart from small differences in rounding, that 2 arc-sec difference is largely due to differences in ayanamsa calculation. I use Swiss Ephemeris only for tropical planetary positions and do not use their sidereal calculations. I use my own module to compute the ayanamsa. There is a small difference between what they do and what I do. The original Lahiri ayanamsa was linear - it assumed a fixed rate of precession. However, linear ayanamsa is not correct. Science does not know the correct ayanamsa, but we do know the correct model for the changes in ayanamsa with time (given the initial ayanamsa on a particular date and time). So I use the non-linear model. I am assuming that Swiss Ephemeris uses the original linear Lahiri ayanamsa OR, more likely, they use the correct non-linear model, but use a slightly different seed. In other words, they and I may have converted the linear ayanamsa into a non-linear one in a slightly different way. When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we take the star position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given by Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some specific date (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct? We can't honor all of them and have to honor only one of them. If you assume a linear ayanamsa change rate as Lahiri originally did, all of them can be honored. But, when we non-linearize it, we have to choose one of them, honor it and deviate in the others. In any case, I will investigate this further and correct any errors in my software or give new options if I deem them appropriate. On a separate note, some people have been asking me to allow linear ayanamsas. For example, Yukteshwar ayanamsa uses a fixed rate of precession change that is factually known to be wrong. However, it looks like some people want to stick to it. In future, I will add support for some linear ayanamsas also (though they are definitely wrong). I hope this answers your question. But, by using the same setting for apparent/true positions in both softwares, you can considerably reduce the mismatches. Sanjay, you can rely on JHora for your ardha-nadi work, but please realize that there are several options and make sure that you set them correctly. If you have the patience to try all permutations and combinations, please try them all and draw your own conclusions. Otherwise, I will suggest setting "geocentric" positions, "true" positions and "mean" nodes in the "Planet Calculation Options". However, I am not sure if Lahiri ayanamsa is fully correct. Above, we were talking about deviations of 1-2 arc-sec between softwares. But I am of the opinion that the Lahiri ayanamsa may be off by 1-2 arc-MIN. As this is comparable to the ardha-nadi size, your research cannot be done without fixing the ayanamsa perfectly! May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha

Jaya Jagannatha
Dear Narasimha
OK your point is made. We had also discussed this some time back and from next year shall start addresing the vexed ayanamsa issue so that we can at least try to settle it to whatever extent possible.
The options I have been using are -
1. Geocentric positions
2. True positions for planets
3. Mean nodes [still cannot understand why some people use true nodes ignoring Parasara and Jaimini's teaching of constant Rahu retrogression which is also confirmed in Prasna Marga rahu-sun-moon chakra and Jataka Parijatha]
4. Thanks for the poit on the need to tinker with the Lahiri Ayanamsa by 1-2 arc-min
Here is some point for you to consider in future
Case-1: Jiddu Krishnamurti
Krishnamurti, Jiddu
Date: May 12, 1895
Time: 12:23:30 am
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 78 E 30' 00", 13 N 33' 00"
Madanapalle, India
Lagna in Swadhaa nadiamsa and Saturn exalted [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his beliefs on guru-shisya concept and his rejection of father [Saturn opposite Sun], his concept on total freedom [exalted in Libra and retro] etc. Now this can get altered if the *Custom Ayanamsa* is more than lahiri ayanamsa by 1m47sec to Venus which is completely wrong. So the upper limit of change is 1m46s > Lahiri > 2m0s ...........[A]

Case-2: Dr B V Raman
Raman, Bangalore Venkata
Date: August 8, 1912
Time: 7:43:00 pm
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 77 E 35' 00", 12 N 59' 00"
Lagna in Navanita nadiamsa and Sun in Cancer [male birth confirmation] is the ardha nadiamsa ruler confirming his indept study as a jyotishi etc. Themodification does not occur if the change of *custom ayanamsa is within 2m0s >Lahiri> 1m57s...[B]
Taking A & B we have the range of 1m46s > Lahiri > 1m57s

Lot more cases have to be done before we can arrive at the exact ayanamsa.
I fully support your stand on the non-linear ayanamsa as this is closer to the truth and the liear ayanamsa has to be rejected sooner or later by all as it is a hangover of the past. As the worlds mathematical knowledge improves, astrologers must grow to benefit from it. Now come to the three options -
You state:
>When we non-linearize Lahiri ayanamsa, should we take the star
>position as sacrosant or the zero ayanamsa date given by
>Lahiri to be sacrosanct or the ayanamsa value given for some
>specific date (e.g. 1900 Jan 1) as sacrosanct?

1. Taking the star position to be sacrosanct - this is the chitra paksha definition and should be recommended by us (SJC) based on the first day of every century i.e. 1 Jan 1900 at midnight in Ujjain and 1 Jan 2000 etc and non-linear ayanamsa progression.
2. Zero ayanamsa date given by Lahiri - this should be called Lahiri Non-linear ayanamsa

3. There should be an option for Lahiri linear ayanamsa [we can never recommend this] for those who cannot understand why.

4. Forget any magic dates.

Add these options only when you have the time after the TP book. Now I have done some work recently on a chart using the sixth level of the Vimsottari dasa to prove to him that it works. Hari was visiting and here was my detailed reading.
Here are some extracts. Hari can copy the various mails he has been writing to Visti and others on this.

I can't recollect what Sanjay did with the rasi & navamsa as I was talking simultaneously with Sarbani at that time but nevertheless here is the table of events with comments by Sanjay that may help you to understand what Sanjay did with the rasi and navamsa.

Präëa antardaçä

Deha antardaçä

Reading of situation



Left home to travel by flight in northern direction from Mumbai to Delhi


Flight delayed due to technical reason


Flight took off for Delhi


Work of proof reading book given by Sanjay



Discussions with Sarbani, Freedom & Sanjay


Very tired, went to sleep


Woke up but did not get up from bed*


Got up finally, attended interview


Ate food but did not like it, offer of job and reimbursement of travel allowance (in FULL due to breaking of sakata yoga causing mukuta yoga)


Discussions with Sarbani/Freedom/Sanjay



Left Gangaram hospital road residence to travel in west direction back to Mumbai. No boarding pass issued but after some time, issued boarding pass in first class although ticket was economy class

Data for use is:

Hari (rectified Sanjay Rath)

Natal Chart

Date: September 28, 1971
Time: 11:02:21
Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
Place: 80 E 14' 00", 13 N 02' 00"
Chennai Thyagarayanagar, India
Lahiri ayanamsa and apparent time of sunrise
Rath: * things like this were read from the rasi and navamsa using sixth level of vimsottari dasa to correct the time. He actually confirmed this later. The point is that this does not match the ardha nadiamsa of Saturn which is totally incorrect and the correct ardha nadiamsa ruler should be Venus which is (1) debilitated (F) conjoined (2) Sun (M) and (3) exalted (M) Mercury (M) to indicate a male [3M 1F] male birth.

Now what we need is the exact ayanamsa which gives this level of vimsottari dasa as indicated above and also Venus as the ardha nadiamsa ruler.
With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath

Brihaspati Gayatri, Vishwamitra/Gaathina Rishi Rig Veda 6.62.6