| From: Surya Rao <suryarao12@yahoo.com> | Mailed-By: returns.groups.yahoo.com |
Reply-To: vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com
Date: Nov 8, 2005 3:48 AM
Subject: Re: [vedic-astrology] Re: Laughing at divisional transits
Dear Sreenadh,
See how many signs are involved even if we consider Rasi alone. It can be more than 8 if we take AVmax sign of Guru also. Some of these features may coincide in one rasi. Even then Guru's tranist through 5 - 6 signs can give children. Guru in one position aspects 3 signs. So at any time if we consider all signs that is said below 1 to 8 some "Putra_Rasi" will be under the influence of Guru. I think this is something all can understand.
Under this predicament, just imagine someone applies such formulae to Vargas treated as independent. Guru shall cause children in all rasis? Then how shall one predict? Postmortem will be wonderful.
We must do research but research must be methodical and intelligent. I am sorry if I am wrong in the above perception. I have few more doubts -
- If someone says that aspects and transits are applicable to Navamsa, then what about Kendra_Trikona positions?
- Rajayoga have been predicted in respect of what - Rasi or other Vargas? Or you say everywhere there are Rajayogas and have equal strengths?
- A planet is beneficial for the native based on Lagna - is it? Can that change in the case of Varga where Lagna may be different?
See for Kanya Lagna is Mars is dire malefic and so it will be for the native. Now say Kanya has navamsa in Leo. Shall malefics Mars become benevolent for spouse?
4. How the strength is attributed in Varga_Bala calculations – Rasi is more important and contributes more strength than other Vargas? If yes why?
Surya Rao
2)The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord is posited
3) The sign in which the 5th lord from Moon is posited.
4) The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord from moon is posited.
5) The sign in which the 5th lord from Ju is posited.
6) The sign in which the Navamsa of 5th lord from Ju is posited.
7) The sign in which Mandi is posited.
8) The sign in which the Navamsa of Mandi is posited.
From: Sanjay Rath <guruji@srath.com>
Date: Nov 9, 2005 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [vedic-astrology] Re: Laughing at divisional transits
To: vedic-astrology@yahoogroups.com
om namo bhagavate vasudevaya
Dear Sri Surya Rao,
Will 'tad-amsa-ke' always be interpreted as navamsa? When will other vargas come into the picture? Incidentally, I agree with your fundamental doubt that if all those rules are applied they cover almost all signs implying that pregnancy can happen anytime and does not depend on transits!!!
To the questions you raise, I have views to offer:
1. Kendra and trikona positions are also applicable. See the dictum of Parasara on the calculation of strength. You will find a clear dictum on the use of kendra in vargas.
2. Awaiting a respose from others on this...very good question/point.
3. Yes. Good and bad happen in every dasa, and it is not always that bad must happen in every field of life. For example if Mars is giving a negative indication in the rasi chart as the 8th lord then it hampers health and energy and indicates a difficult period and if in the navamsa it is a yogakaraka and is well placed then these problems will not be felt in marriage. If it is also 8th lord in say another varga then in that varga the negative effects will be surely felt.
4. Are you sure that the rasi has the most important position or strength in Varga strength (Vimsopaka bala) calculation? I thought it was the shastyamsa D60 chart which has the maximum weightage. Please check and get back. This is really basic.
With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath
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Sri Jagannath Center®
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Dear Sanjayji,
My views in green at respective places.
Thanking you
Surya Rao
Will 'tad-amsa-ke' always be interpreted as navamsa? When will other vargas come into the picture? that depends on the context that the author addresses. But general use that is found in texts refer to navamsa by amsa. So unless otherwise stated mostly it is taken as navamsa. If your question is in respect of different meanings possible, the basic meaning of amsa in Jyotihsastra is 'bhaga' or degree.
Rath: That still does not answer the basic question. When will other vargas come into the picture.
Vargas are part of Rasi and not independent and as such the question when will don' arise. "When will?" is not a part of my thinking as I don't treat Varga as separate from Rasi.
Incidentally, I agree with your fundamental doubt that if all those rules are applied they cover almost all signs implying that pregnancy can happen anytime and does not depend on transits!!! When you agree on this aspect, how do you advocate the use of independent Vargas, ATPs, Arudha in varga, Arudha in ATPs, Rajayoga in Vargas etc All this will lead to a situation of chaos in Jyotisha where anything and everything can be justified if not with Rasi with some Varga or ATP or Annual Tajaka or some Dasa, Vimsottari, Kalachakra, Narayana in rasi or if it fails from some Varga. It is in this context I had raised other questions. I must thank you for concurring with my view in this regard.
Rath: There is a huge universe but everything is in perfect order if you havethe vision of Jagannath Vishnu and everything is in chaos if you do not have this vision. To try to explain away this huge gigantic creation, with its multiple subtleties and multiple environments in just one rasi chart is trying to turn a blind eye to the existence of this vast truth. The rasi chart holds it all but it can be seen with the microscope of the vragas, and the events timed with the various dasa tools as they represent different aspects of the universe and its working. I concurred with the questioning and that this view is correct as how can we time the birth of children when Jupiter's transit in any sign is going to give a child! That automatically brings out the need for the Saptamsa chart.
You have not answered my point in the context of objectivity of horoscope interpretation. We are not discussing the Universe that is "anantam, ajnatam, avarnaneeyam...". Issue pertains to delineation of a chart and how such proliferation of extrapolated techniques can be tolerated in the name of research?
You have not answered my point in the context of objectivity of horoscope interpretation. We are not discussing the Universe that is "anantam, ajnatam, avarnaneeyam...". Issue pertains to delineation of a chart and how such proliferation of extrapolated techniques can be tolerated in the name of research?
To the questions you raise, I have views to offer:
1. Kendra and trikona positions are also applicable. See the dictum of Parasara on the calculation of strength. You will find a clear dictum on the use of kendra in vargas.
Irrespective of what Parasara says in some isolated verse of a spurious text like BPH, we must look with objectivity as to the consequences of such conceptions. Question comes only if you uphold that Vargas are independent. I have already refuted the independence of Vargas in my posting and I am awaiting some response.
Rath: BPHS is a compilation of Poorva Khanda and Uttara khanda of the text written by Parasara. If you say this is wrong, then so be it. So what is the source of your Jyotish? Where are you studying Jyotish from? Is it the Puranas or some other texts? Then, according to you, the entire India/world of astrology which practises Parasari Jyotish is wrong...What about Jaimini? Do you agree with this text at least or do you say this is also spurious?
we must look with objectivity as to the consequences of such conceptions. Question comes only if you uphold that Vargas are independent. I have already refuted the independence of Vargas in my posting and I am awaiting some response.
All ancient works except Vedas have evolved over ages and it is possible that errors have kept into them. We need objective study to understand them. An isolated verse or two if it run contrary to fundamentals, must be rejected.
2. Awaiting a respose from others on this...very good question/point.
3. Yes. Good and bad happen in every dasa, and it is not always that bad must happen in every field of life. For example if Mars is giving a negative indication in the rasi chart as the 8th lord then it hampers health and energy and indicates a difficult period and if in the navamsa it is a yogakaraka and is well placed then these problems will not be felt in marriage. If it is also 8th lord in say another varga then in that varga the negative effects will be surely felt.
Here again you are taking Varga as independent. There cannot be any independent Varga characterization for Planets as the benevolence or malevolence the planets derive from the rising point - Lagna of Rasi. I have already explained the irrationality of treating Lagna_Navamsa as Lagna for anything. There is only one Lagna in a Kundali and that is the rising point over East which renders the Karmic qualities to the chart and its associated parameters. If for Aries_Lagna with Navamsa in Libra, there is no Libra rising and any extrapolation of the Rasi concepts to other Vargas is an unscientific step.
Rath: I have wriiten books where I have shown the use of the various Lagna in the divisional charts for children, spouse etc. In this line I am joined by K N Rao and B V Raman. I wrote in the lines of teachings of my grandfather in his book "Shodasa Varga" (Oriya Language).
There is only one Lagna in a Kundali and this is the exact cusp of the ascendant in the eastern horizon in the sidereal zodiac and this ascendant manifests with different natures in different aspects of life. For marriage and dharma it manifests as the Navamsa Lagna, for co-born it manifests as the Parasari Drekkana Lagna, for Karma viveka it manifests as the Jagannatha Drekkana Lagna, For Karma Phala it manifests as the Dasamsa Lagna and so on. That is the nature of Prajapati, for it is Prajapati Who is creating all beings and this is the lagna cusp.
Definitioon of anything as scientific or unscientific depends on the parameters used. I will comment on this when you define what parameters of 'scientific definition' have been overlooked.
You have not answered my point. Do you accept that Vargas are not independent? I have discussed this matter in sufficient details above. You have not answered on the point I have discussed. KN Rao and BV Raman, names add no credibility to any work. BV Raman and KN Rao followed such Varga theory with two ayanamsas differing by 1.5 degree nearly. So we can have a feel of the validity of their claims. You yourself have rejected Raman ayanamsa as wrong. So Sri BV Raman's certificate for any Varga theory has no validity.
As I said above, Varga Lagna is within Rasi _Lagna and has no independent existence with which the Rasi conceptions of aspects, yogas, lordships, dasas, longitudes etc can be extrapolated to Varga charts conceived independently.
4. Are you sure that the rasi has the most important position or strength in Varga strength (Vimsopaka bala) calculation? I thought it was the shastyamsa D60 chart which has the maximum weightage. Please check and get back. This is really basic.
Please check as to how I had raised that point. If I remember correctly, I had raised a question mark as I had a doubt. Anyway I will have a detailed look at the rationale of Vargabala and will give my view. Not only this is basic all the aspects that we have discussed are basic. It is the spurious research that is polluting the basics and confuses the students.
Rath: Awaiting your findings patiently.
You may have a look at the Kunda_kriya as is being shown in some SJC docs.
Rath: Which docs are these? Kindly show them so that we can have them reviewed and altered if necessary.
Those details given below ie Prasna Marga is quoted in "Tattvas and Birth Rectification' by Visti_Larzen.
Prasnamarga is quoted as the source but the method explained is something different. Prasnamarga, Ch. V, verse 8 says that Kundalagam has to be Janmatara or Anujanma tara and as such it must be linked to Moon. But now under research such basic rules have been misinterpreted without giving the rationale of research and verification achieved.
Rath: Thats for Prasna charts. What about Karma Taraa? In Orissa we use this as well. Is the linkage to the Moon because of Manushya Jaataka? I would think so. Which rules have been misinterpreted or misunderstood?
Kunda_kriya as I know links Lagna and Moon. I have not come across any other use except in the above doc where Kunda_Lagna is (Lagnax81) is again equated to Lagna. Can it be possible as a Lagna rectification method? Can Lagna be rectified by multiplying and then equating with itself?
To judge this aspect, do we need to think of Manushyajataka and Prasna etc. Please have some reflections.
I am thankful for your agreement mentioned at the outset and I hope that we will be able to have more fruitful exchange of views in future.
Rath: Of course.
Surya Rao
Dear Surya
Dear Surya
Can you give me even one example where you use the saptamsa?
With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath
With best wishes and warm regards,
Sanjay Rath
